on being a renaissance person
The thread on post-intellectual society has been of great interest to me. I have read it more than once and many of the comments and thoughts have been startling and interesting. Thanks to all who have participated.I would like to take it one step further. As we all know a renaissance person is one who knows bits about many things and possesses the mental faculties to not only learn, but to apply that learning. In keeping with that thought, what books or subjects would you deem most important to a renaissance person living in today's world?
I believe, of course, history, of one's country and of one's world, is important. As are smatterings of religions and computer knowledge. Philosophy? Yes, but whose philosophy? And why?
I am anticipating your comments and hope to inundate my TBR list with suggestions.
PAM
RE: on being a renaissance person
Although this is a weak area in my own education, I think a modern renaissance person must have a good basic education in science as well as in literature, history, religion, and so on. I see a rift widening between people who are knowledgeable in the arts areas and those who are knowledgeable in the sciences. When I was a college student I filled my science requirments with courses that had been dumbed down for those like me, weak in math and unwilling to risk my GPA in areas that were not my strength. Similarly, science student friends of mine took rather silly survey courses to fill their arts requirements. As long as we continue doing this, we won't have many truly well educated, well rounded people.The few people I know who have stretched their minds on both sides of the great divide have my respect and admiration.
Paula
RE: on being a renaissance person
I agree with Paula that at least a general knowledge of science is in order; certainly physics and biology at a general level.In philosophy, I again think that a general survey is important. A passing familiarity with the major movements from Plato to Nietzsche and Marx would seem important. Among more modern philosophers, it's often hard to determine, but I'd guess that some knowledge of post-structuralism/deconstruction (as a Philosophical movement as opposed to a literary criticism technique) would be important (Derrida's "Plato's Pharmacy" or "White Mythology" would be a good start) as well as neo-pragmatism as evidenced by such writers as Richard Rorty (e.g. Contingency, Irony and Solidarity) would cover a wide area in current philosophy (at least as I know it).
I'd have to add music, and far more music knowledge than I have. Renaissance people in the Renaissance combined knowledge with skill--most could play an instrument, dance, and dash of a sonnet. I'd think some knowledge of music history as well as an ability to play or sing might be a requirment.
And what about business? Should a renaissance person today be expected to keep up with business trends? How about widely-known books like The Fifth Discipline? I could ask the same question about current events.
I'm sorry, Pam, but it appears I've added more to the questions than to the reading list. It's a tough question you pose. Maybe my thoughts will clarify as others respond.
Russ
RE: on being a renaissance person
I think that as well as all the points mentioned above, a modern renaissance person should learn to respect and appreciate the visual arts! I know first hand how people pass off the visual arts as being a trivial area of only minor import and significance, where in fact, artists working in mediums including painting, sculpture, printmaking, etc etc have contributed the most profound and powerful political, historical,philosophical and religious statements which endure across the centuries.
RE: on being a renaissance person
Oh dear! I shall have to give up all idea of being a renaissance person! There are many subjects mentioned above about which I have little or no knowledge.Seriously though, do you think that the sheer volume of knowledge available now prevents anyone being truly well-rounded? Just as there are many books I will never get around to reading, there are many subjects I am sure I would find interesting but know that I will never get the chance to study.
RE: on being a renaissance person
I think a modern renaissance person's education should involve, above all History and including Philosophy, Literature, Politics and Art.
I find the value of philosophy in its ability to force us to examine our assumptions. It is easy for people to assume that just because we use certain words a lot (e.g., "good"), that means we actually have a clear understanding of what they refer to. Philosophy challenges that assumption, forcing us to defend our assumptions and therefore our understanding of reality.
History really does repeat itself because human beings are basically creatures of habit. centuries, innovations, events, lands, fashions, victories, disasters may all be different, but people are governed by a finite set of emotional and biological rules and they determine all our actions past, present and future. Therefore we can learn so much about who we are by knowing where we've come from and where we are going. Look at it like this: you're in the car and you want to get from A to B...but you have no map. you're a stranger to the area and you cant see any road signs. Getting to B is really not that difficult but it is if you havent got directions. History is the A-Z map. In fact it is more than that two-dimensional map - it is interactive - it can tell you where you are, how you got there, how to move on, all the routes that other people took to get where you want to go, and maybe suggest to you that you dont really want to go there! History is what you should be studying at school and at university because by identifying why events took place, why wars occur, why countries rise and fall, you are identifying in yourself how you prioritise what is important to you, by making you say what you think the important factors are. Don't forget that history is the same as what happens to us all in our daily lives except that more time has gone by. Why then does it become less relevant? What happened last tuesday is already history and it is human nature to try to work out what happened: the investigation into how it could have happened, the objective reasons as to why the hijackers are anti-american, the terrible loss of life that makes it comparable to pearl harbour...pearl harbour - a very important piece of american history and of world war 2 - a turning point for the american people. This recent tragedy has already joined that timeline, and therefore may offer up insights into similarities, differences, developments that we may otherwise not have become aware of. Maybe (hopefully!) we can prevent the reaction from being as forceful as it was at Hiroshima, for which the American people have been apologising ever since.History teaches you to organise your thought processes logically and objectively. It hones your analytical skills for life. It teaches you to stand back from the events and see them in as factual a way possible. The Russian writer Tolstoy once said that all reporting is biased. The true relating of history strives to bring statement of fact to that reporting. (i often think journalists would benefit from a course of historical anaylsis.) In some ways i like to think of history as the science of the arts. Most people are impressed by those of us who can appreciate and understand physics, because our world is made up of physical properties. All areas of scientific theory and mathematics depend on the laws of physics. History should hold that kind of importance among the arts. There is a history to absolutely anything and everything - music, art, literature, science including physics!. So learning how to understand how history puts the pieces of our ancestors' lives together is a precious tool for each person here and now, that can empower them to control their own future. If you hit that iceberg of history with your ship of ignorance, then like the titanic you will not be in control of your sinking vessel! Knowing beforehand that most of the iceberg is submerged below the surface will empower you to decide what your best probable course of action should be. if you know your history, you could have seen it coming.
Adam.
RE: on being a renaissance person
I really don't think it's impossible to be a modern renaissance person today. While there is a lot more to know about (quantum physics, post-modernism, computers, DNA) than Leonardo had to deal with, there are also some excellent overview resources available today that allow one to survey a field in general and then only diving deeper if one wishes.For example, I'm currently reading Physics for the Rest of Us: Ten Basic Ideas of Twentieth-Century Physics that Everyone Should Know . . . and How They Have Shaped Our Culture and Consciousness. It's a slow read, but interesting. And I always find I understand the theory of relativity while I'm reading something like this, and then -- poof! -- it's gone if I try to explain it a week later.
I'd agree with all the suggestions above -- visual arts, music, philosophy, history. I would add poetry and Shakespeare, but since we're a bunch of readers here, I suspect I'm preaching to the choir.
Also, remember, since few people today have to devote 12 or 14 hours of labor into getting their food out of the fields or working in a factory, and since the general education level is much higher, then we probably have more leisure as a society to devote to becoming learned than any other in history. The fact that a vast majority spend it parked in front of the TV doesn't mean that individuals who desire to do so cannot obtain a fairly deep level of understanding.
And thank God -- remember, we live a lot longer and have a much longer life span in which to read.
I, for one, am encouraged. As a female, I realize that had I been born just three or four generations ago, I would not even be asked this question -- it would only apply to the men among us. The fact that I can read and think and have attended college is a blessing of only the past two centuries. With a whole lifetime of great books and discussions out there, I hope to never come to the end of it all, but to become more and more well-rounded as I go (to match the middle-age spread, presumably).
Imagine how awful it would be to reach the age of, say, 68 and wake up one morning with the awful thought: "I know everything! I've come to the end of all knowledge in all fields!" Bleh . . . !
RE: on being a renaissance person
Renaiassance Woman - basic knowledge of history, and the history of thought, the arts, rudimentary understanding of science and a thorough understanding of the scientific method. Someone looking forward, not back. A renaissance woman listens to the new music with a discerning ear, sees the movies which attempt art, seeks out the performance artists of all kinds, reads the best of the latest experimental fiction, understands the direction of the most creative visual artists of her time. In short, the renaissance woman spends her youth accumulating knowledge, and her adulthood seeking out what the best and the brightest of her generation, and those following, are producing. The renaissance individual probably spends more time reading magazines than books I suspect. Just MHO.
RE: on being a renaissance person
Oh my... it seems to have become an overwhelming task. Not only to define, but to hope to achieve such a status. But I think many of us here are up to the challenge of getting as close as possible to the goal. History, yes Adam, I agree, history is very important. It holds the keys, not only to the past, but to the future as well. History of all things. Where to begin? Probably with what we feel comfortable with, a place in time, a geographical spot that make us curious, or a specific person who has earned our admiration. And then, I suppose, one could branch out from there.The help on philospohers is much appreciated, Russ, but I still have questions. For a beginning student of philosophy, where to begin? Is there any rudimentary volume that should be read first to introduce the field, or is jumping in with both feet the best method?
Music? Do we listen to it, study it and play it? Which is most important? Does the instrument matter? Can you even play Mozart on a guitar?
And Susan, I agree wholeheartedly. I, too, am grateful for being born in an age and in a country that allows women the freedom to be equal. But then, I suppose that is another whole history to be read, and a whole other philosophy to be learned. The list never ends.
Let the "work" continue to build my mind to the best it can be, however humble, however great, as long as I use it to its fullest extent.
PAM
RE: on being a renaissance person
Pam,I'm certainly no expert on philosophy, much less single-volume histories. My own philosophical education has been put together piecemeal, with over focus in some areas and glaring blanks in others. Still, there are a couple of single-volume histories I do know. The most famous is Will Durant's Story of Philosophy. It's old, so it won't cover the modern stuff, but you'd get a good sense of the giants of western philosophy before the 20th Century, I'd bet. More recently, there was a BBC program on the history of philosophy and a companion book (by MaGee? McGee, something like that) that might also be interesting. If you want to go more in depth, Frederick Copleston wrote a multi-volume history of philosophy (there has to be at least 7 volumes, so it's quite a commitment). But I guess if I were starting from scratch, I'd probably try a one-volume work, then read some of the works mentioned that sound interesting. One doesn't need to read all of Plato to have a general understanding, but if Plato really interests you, there are far worse ways to spend your reading time.
Now, as for music, I don't play an instrument, and I haven't studied it much. So mostly, I'm a listener. But if my goal were to be a neo-Renaissance Person, I'd certainly study some and try to pick up some instrument. I don't think it would matter which one I chose (well, maybe the Kazoo is out), since the point is more to have a direct involvment in the art than listening can allow. I also don't know that I'd focus exclusively on classical--if anything, I think our neo-Renaissance Person would no more about Jazz!
Russ
RE: on being a renaissance person
Pam may I recommend as an introduction to philosophy, Will Durant's "The Story of Philosophy".
RE: on being a renaissance person
Hmmmmmm....lots of food for thought here.But it seems to me that there is a HUGE gap in all the suggestions above. What about mathematics? It underpins all our lives from the most basic ways (checking your change, counting) to the most complex (physics, engineering, statistics, probability). And yet most people are - to coin a word suggested by John Allen Paulos - really quite innumerate. In his excellent little book, Innumeracy, he tellls of a conversation he had with a doctor "who, within approximately twenty nminutes, stated that a certain procedure he was contemplating (a) had a one-chance-in-a-million risk associated with it; (b) was 99 percent safe; and (c) usually went quite well."
More and more these days, we are expected to make judgements based on risk - should we allow our kids to have the MMR vaccine? Is it safe to travel to Europe? - without really understanding the maths behind the judgements. We read polls and surveys, without understanding the possible errors. (According to the polls, politician A is ahead of politician B by 2% - but the poll has a possible 3% error - so is A actually ahead of B?) People buy lottery tickets without realizing just how remote their chances are of winning the big one - and how much they are being ripped off! (In the UK, the probability of winning ten pounds for your one pound ticket is one in fifty-seven...) I'd suggest that it's far more important to understand this basic stuff, than to know precisely where a comma goes in a sentence.
I cannot understand why it should be that people are frequently quite proud of the fact that they didn't do well at maths at school; and those same people would be horrified at mis-used apostrophes...
Any suggestions as to why it is that maths should be so reviled? And can one claim to be a renaissance person without a basic knowledge of mathematics?
(One other essential book - How to Lie With Statistics by Darrell Huff - first published in 1954, and still totally relevant today.)
RE: on being a renaissance person
Great point about mathematics, Martin. I was one of those oddball kids who was good in English AND Math (we leave off the 's' in the U.S.). I would never have won a scholarship to college without it, and if I hadn't gone to college, well, where would I be today? But I digress.I do think some study of music would be essential to a renaissance person. Music is closely related to math, for one thing. Even a rudimentary study of music leads to greater listening pleasure and understanding. Somewhere I read an analogy with baseball that I think is valid. If one is watching a baseball game, and has no knowledge of the game, and a triple play occurs, one will recognize that something unusual and special has happened. But imagine how much more pleasure a person will derive if they understand even a little about baseball - watching the play be set up, wondering if it will in fact occur, the anticipation, the excitement when it finally does.
Also, you will gain an appreciation of how difficult it is to create really fine music. Good musicians make it look easy, in fact that is the point. I assure you that even the very most talented and gifted spend many hours in practice and study.
I don't believe the instrument matters. I would not choose violin simply because it is very difficult and you will have to study for a long time to get a decent sound. Guitar, mandolin, or even, yes, the ukelele. Anything with strings would be my choice. Actually, I would recommend the harp. It looks intimidating, but you can learn and be playing simple songs very quickly, even with absolutely no musical background. Yes, really! And beautiful sounds come from it very naturally.
You don't have to make a big investment - instruments can be rented, in fact I would encourage you to do so. A few weeks of lessons will definitely speed up your quest to understand music better, and be less frustrating. You may like it, or you may hate it. But you will learn a lot about music.
Regards, Siobhan
RE: on being a renaissance person
Martin, I'd venture to say "innumeracy" is as much a bane as illiteracy, at least in the USA. It is curious, though, that concern over this deficiency is sadly lacking in most quarters. There seems to be an attitude that math is "special" and if students don't show early propensities, it's practically useless to introduce any kind of mathematics to them beyond the basics. A kid is placed in a "track" that will either emphasize mathematics (and science) or s/he will be shuttled off onto another track where math is de-emphasized, is secondary -- or even worse -- ignored altogether. No wonder so many people develop the notion that "I'm just not good at math."And this is not just a problem with mathematics and science: students who don't show early talent for, say, music will be discouraged from "wasting time" on something in which they will never be best. Hardly any consideration is given to learning something merely for the sake of learning, and this is why, I think, there is so little intellectualism -- spirited amateurism (in the original sense of the word) has been devalued; you now have to be a "pro", an expert, or you are nothing. We have narrowed (although deepened) the individual's knowledge -- in order to specialize and be the best at whatever -- so much that we even specialize ourselves into obsolescence. Think about it, the generalist is not greatly valued; the general medical practitioner, the family lawyer, the all-purpose tutor, the auto mechanic who could fix any car: they've gone the way of the black telephone.
RE: on being a renaissance person
Frieda, I totally agree with your assessment.As to math illiteracy, I think there are several reasons:
1. Math is perceived as "nerdy."
2. Math, to an arts and letters person (such as myself) has always seemed daunting because it's akin to learning a new language -- with the added difficulty of learning a new alphabet (like Chinese). I realize I may be wrong, and I would love someone to steer me in the direction of a book that would make it easy for a humanities/social sciences-oriented individual to undertake its study without taking a class.
3. In the special case of females, there is incredible discouragement from society, schools and teachers to excel in this arena.
And in addressing your generalist/specialist dichotomy: I totally agree that the generalist is unjustly undervalued as a whole. Yet think of the individuals you most enjoy conversing with. They nearly always know a little bit about everything.
I had an acquaintance who was a very specialized doctor (pediatric infectious disease specialist) who actually taught at medical school. He once bragged to me that he had not read one thing unrelated to his field since he graduated from medical school 15 years before, and he hoped never to have to again. I thought this was remarkably sad and limiting.
RE: on being a renaissance person
Martin, I agree with you 100% *g*I help out at my children's primary (elementary) school, and once I had heard every Grade 1 book read many times, I decided to volunteer to help with maths. I was astonished at the number of parents who made comments like "Gosh, you must be clever to help with maths" when I was working with 7 year olds, making change, learning the time and listening to tables.
For the last 5 years I have been taking bright children from the last two classes (11, 12 and 13 year olds) for advanced maths, and have been told many times what a great role model I am for the girls, since I show an interest in maths.
RE: on being a renaissance person
I had originally planned to list math as well as science as a criterion for the renaissance person, but decided not to because it is implied. You can't go beyond the very lowest level in science without a moderate proficiency in math. And I do think moderate proficiency what we're talking about here, isn't it? No one can be an expert in all fields of knowledge, but perhaps some of us can aspire to a competence in a number of areas so we can see the interconnectedness of human knowledge.Paula
RE: on being a renaissance person
Susan,
I have precisely the experience you describe when reading about relativity. I think I've read Nigel Calder's book, Einstein's Universe at least five times over the years, trying to get it to stay in my head, but I can't. I tell myself, at least I know that, for a moment, I got it!
Let's see, Philosophy, Music, Math, History... Has anyone mentioned the Visual Arts? And I guess I would make that category quite broad and include building and architecture. Also, some knowledge of the world's major religions would seem important.
RE: on being a renaissance person
Dorit Bergen, I actually mentioned the Visual Arts....you'll find my posting above(a few back). I guess my point has been made..........
RE: on being a renaissance person
Martin,Math is a good addition. Like Paula, though, I kind of thought of it as implied in science. That may not be fair, but for the most part--as your post indicates--we need to know math for how it applies in other areas. Most of the other areas we've discussed in being a renaissance person are ends in themselves (i.e., a renaissance person should know some philosophy because they should, not necessarily because it leads or underpins a knowledge of something else).
Actually, I'd argue that the knowledge you list in your post is needed on a more basic level--one does not need to aspire to be a Renaissance person in order to benefit from knowing the probability of winning the lottery.
Russ
RE: on being a renaissance person
But I could argue that knowledge of math(s) and the philosophy of some of the fundamental concepts are at least as important (and certainly as interesting and beautiful - at least to me) as knowledge of philosophy.For example, the famous tortoise and hare paradox (I can't remember whose name is attached to it). The tortoise starts 100yds ahead of the hare, and the hare moves ten times faster than the tortoise. The hare runs up to where the tortoise gets to, but the tortoise has moved up ten yards...so the hare gets to where the tortoise was, but the tortoise has moved up another yard...
We know the hare overtakes the tortoise, but you have to introduce the fundamental concept of the limit of an infinite series to prove it.
Or how about infinity (from a maths perspective)? There are different sizes of infinity (!)
How about irrational numbers? Poor old Pythagoras could not cope with the fact that he could prove there were numbers that could not be expressed as the sum of two integers - went completely against his philosophy.
And of course, as briefly discussed in another post, good old i - the square root of -1. Or even simpler - what IS a negative number? Can you have minus five apples?
I could go on...
irrational numbers
Sorry - slip above - an irrational number is one that cannot be expressed as the ratio of two integers.(Memo to me - must proof-read more carefully...)
RE: on being a renaissance person
All of the above have been interesting reading and well taken in terms of a classic education but, as some have pointed out, given the depth and the breadth of information amassed between the 1600s and 2000, I'm back to PAM's original question: what standards should apply in determining a solid foundation for the renaissance person of today?Russ puzzled whether business acumen should be a criterion, and it would seem that to survive our societal structure the answer's a resounding yes (if for no other reason than to afford the materials to round out our education). So how deeply into theories of economics should we tread -- just enough to understand market fluctuations and protect our portfolios, or enough to understand the societal and political implications of WTO's international trade agreements? Leonardo didn't know economics -- he had patronage.
In literature, are we to limit ourselves to works originating in our native language, include those of "our" collective European origin, or expand to some measure for influential world literature? This question becomes more critical when addressing basic mythology and folklore as successive artistic movements were spawned by an ever expanding knowledge of "alien" cultures and those cultures are being overtaken by western hegemony. Joseph Campbell certainly comes in handy in this case. But how much of the Roman and Greek classics should be supplanted by forays into Northern European, Eastern, Native American and African mythologies?
The 1600s renaissance person was a polyglot, minimally knowing Latin, Greek, his/her native tongue, some French and some German. Is multilingualism part of the criteria? If so, which languages should prevail -- should it be based on percentage of global speakers? Or economic and political supremacy?
In addition to comparative religion studies, comparative philosophy sounds like a good idea, especially in terms of dialectics. Critical thinking and analytic skills will be ever more crucial in our interconnective world. Is there a "Philosophy for the Rest of Us" tome out there? Which throws us back to the discussion on maths and sciences. Should we only pursue the "hard" sciences -- physics, chemistry, biology, geology, or have a smathering of the social sciences beyond history and the daily-changing geography -- anthropology, sociology, archeology, psychology (shouldn't one know one's phobias from one's neuroses/psychoses?).
In musicology, I would welcome an overview of musical theorem, and a brief music history. What are the corollaries between syncopated Jazz and Mozart anyway? And should a renaissance 2000 person be listening to rap or only the classical composers? I'm not aware of a Berloitz approach to auditory art but I would greatly benefit from one. Paralleling the cliché regarding painting, I don't know music, but I know what I like.
Of the fine arts, isn't a generalized art history and theory also sufficient for most? Does everyone need to put their hands in clay? Hasn't Sister Wendy done the grunt work to an admirable level? And does filmology factor into this field at all or is it still too nascent an art form to be taken seriously? And dance, is it too passé?
How does one distinguish between the common dreck that isn't worthy of retention and true aesthetic achievement, before history dictates? Weren't there only five hundred books in the whole of Firenze when Leo gouached the Last Supper? And only three harpsichords?
I have images of us all setting painting our watercolor still lifes while listening to a Debussey concerto underscoring a tape of Freud discoursing in his native Deutsche on the Oedipus tale and its relationship to the male maturation process while our screen-in-screen t.v.'s (set to mute) display Warhol's "Empire State Building" and NYSE ticker simultaneously. i, i, i, i, i,
What does it take to be a millenium generalist, please?
RE: on being a renaissance person
My view on this is that the arts are creative activities in a broader sense, such as poetry and music, which express personal emotion and imagination - as opposed to the sciences and mathematics, which are concerned with objective, systematised knowledge (although scientific theorisation and discovery involve creativity). However, I admit my bias, but I do think that both measure diverse ingenuity. Maybe what has meaning for one person, doesn't for another and the term "Renaissance Man" is ambivalent.
RE: on being a renaissance person
I always believed that a Renaissance Man would have a well rounded understanding of language in all its forms, general background in arts, history geog.and basic sciences along with the ability to apply their understanding in some practical way. Whilst all of the above are now more complex because of more info, more aids to study and understanding are there too. Check some real 'Renaissance' people. Walter Raleigh, Montaigne, Gallileo's musician composer father. Raleigh wrote a 'History of the World' some wonderful poetry, was a courtier/politician explorer, pirate and colonist. Sadly King James VI and I didn't like him and it all ended in tears.......I am beginning to understand math, but teaching methods were often terribly Draconian. When I was 8, I was strapped once on both hands for getting a sum wrong in long-division. Worse, my parents made huge fuss involving interviews with school-inspectors. I felt I was a marked-child, and as far as maths went, I was.
RE: on being a renaissance person
I feel that the fine arts/visual arts/ dance etc. are WAY too undervalued here. These subjects are not merely creative or artistic, they are often intellectual, political and sometimes even purely conceptual.Some artists even base their work on scientific and mathematical theory or ideas. I think people need to know or understand a little more of these areas before deciding how relevant or important they are rather than simply passing the fine and performing arts off as mere miscellany. And how many people even want a general knowledge of art history and theory besides knowing that Van Gogh "chopped his ear off" (wrong!).... Sorry, but it gets my goat every time.
RE: on being a renaissance person
So, if I am reading this correctly, we have some up with a few topics on which we agree. A modern renaisaance person should have some understanding of:history
math
music
the arts
religion
philosophy
modern business
computers
languagesDoes that cover it? Can we try to decide which books on the topics should be read? Barbara brings up a good point in mentioning Renaissance men of the past. Should reading the biographies of past Renaissance men be read as a foundation or perhaps as incentive or for motivation?
PAM
RE: on being a renaissance person
Thomas Jefferson may or may not qualify as a Renaissance man, but since I was a child I have been reading about him and have been motivated to be interested in and learn about many different areas of study. I will never approach being a Renaissance woman but the motivation has always been there. Reading a biography can be a very motivating factor. Thomas Jefferson has always been my hero.
RE: on being a renaissance person
Frances, Jefferson qualifies near enough to be one of the United States' few "Renaissance Men". Just think, his library provided the backbone of the incipient Library of Congress.Speaking of Jefferson: He was interested in many aspects of the science of horticulture and botany. He collected and planted all kinds of specimens at Monticello -- he was eating tomatoes when most people still viewed them as poisonous. We don't think much about food production nowadays unless we are directly involved in it, but the knowledge is both essential and esoteric.
I would add science to your list, Pam -- everything from botany to zoology, microbiology, chemistry, physics, earth sciences, and there's really too many to list all the branches.
RE: on being a renaissance person
When "renaissance person" is mentioned, Thomas Jefferson is the person who first comes to my mind.In my opinion, the one quality that a person of today must possess in order to qualify would be the ability to access information in all the areas mentioned by everyone. It's impossible to be an expert in every field, but it's important to know what the fields are and which authors are most outstanding in each area. You don't need to actually read them all!
The internet makes it so easy for us to research a subject. Think how difficult is was for someone like Jefferson to obtain the information that we all have literally at our fingertips. The mark of a true renaissance person is the ability to gain knowledge of an unknown subject and put it to practical use.
RE: on being a renaissance person
Pam,What I would propose is that we take a list like you've generated and then put sub-categories under each. Under the sub-categories would come individual works (whether books or something else). I would think such lists could contain both primary and secondary works, though some of the more specialized (e.g. the sciences) may consist almost totally of secondary works.
I'll at least give a start to breaking down the sub-categories, and maybe others can fill in. Then we can start building some sort of enormous syllabus.
history
--History of your country/region
--Ancient history (to the fall of Rome)
--European history (fall of Rome to present)
--World historical survey
--I'll leave it to non-US Citizens to determine if US history deserves a separate entry.
math
--Statistics
--"Higher" math (e.g. calculus)
--Accounting (better under business?)music
--"Classical" (all periods)
--Jazz
--Popular (C&W, R&R, etc)
--Non-western (obvious bias here--Sonia and others might revise)the arts
--Literature (that is where this goes, right?)
--Painting
--Sculpture & Plastic Arts
--Architecture
--Photography
--Film (?)
--or would it be better to do this whole section by periods/locations?religion
--Judaism
--Christianity
--Islam
--Hinduism
--Other Eastern Religions?
--Pagan/neo-pagan?
--Atheism?philosophy
--Ancient
--Medieval
--Early-Modern and Modern
--Contemporary
--Non-western (see note under music)modern business
--Economic Theory
--Accounting (or under Math)
--Marketing
--Organizational Structure & behavior
--Others?computers
--Hardware
--Software
--Networks/Internetlanguages
--This one is tough. Is it learning a language, or becoming familiar with works in translation?Sciences
--Physics (astrology here or separate?)
--Chemistry
--Biology
--Geology
--Social Sciences?
Well, that should get us started.Russ
RE: on being a renaissance person
I've a pal who fullfilled her language requirements for her Ph.D. in Marine Biology with Fortran and Cobol. (This was a long time ago, ;)I submit Captain Sir Richard Frances Burton as another Renaissance Man.
Russ, you're creating an impossible hurdle! At some point, one must begin moving from the accumulation of knowledge to the application of it, as Rose suggested.
RE: on being a renaissance person
I'm not sure myself that accountancy requires a separate area either under business or math - it's just a means to an end.I'd be more inclined myself to divide maths almost by historical periods! Ancient maths (geometry, algebra and basic number theory) and modern maths (calculus, set theory, analysis, real and imaginary numbers, probability and statistics).
And surely you meant astronomy, not astrology?
And where is geography? Perhaps we need a separate section for social sciences, which would include economics, geography...
RE: on being a renaissance person
Yes, a separate section is needed for social sciences including those subjects Martin listed plus anthropology (including archaeology, linguistics...), psychology, sociology, and...oh, this is impossible!
RE: on being a renaissance person
That's an interesting and daunting list, Russ.The thought that came to me reading these posts is: What percentage of the world's population could hope to become a modern renaissance person?
An enquiring mind would not be enough. It would take time and money. Historically, I think that has been true. Today it would be even more so.
RE: on being a renaissance person
Ah, Martin, to a Renaissance Man, astrology and astronomy are the same thing :-) (at least, they were to Copernicus). You are right, of course.I mention accountancy because of its significance to business practice and investing, but my list was just a first attempt.
Christy, I see your point, though during the Renaissance there were scores of books that laid out the proper education for a gentleman, so there is precedence. Pam may envision something different, but to me this is more like a "life-time reading plan." Also, I think preparing a list has a virtue of its own--it makes us see where our gaps in learning might be and then gives us a way to start to fill them (if we so desire). I don't propose, though, that we anatomize much further than one level.
Russ
RE: on being a renaissance person
I also believe we are in search of a lifetime reading list. To expect to learn or absorb such copious amounts of knowledge requires nothing short of a lifetime. Russ, I like your idea of a list with headings and sub-headings. It makes it seem a bit more manageable.How could I forget the sciences? Yes, of course they should be added, and their omission was an oversight.
Perhaps we should also add a category for prior renaissance persons? I have begun to keep an MS Word doc on this thread where I can cut and paste names, titles and categories. It is the only way I can keep it all straight.
Next Christmas, remind me to ask Santa for a photographic memory.
PAM
RE: on being a renaissance person
I have to share this with you. Yesterday, I received in the mail a catalog called "The Great Courses" put out by the Teaching Company. It has a bunch of audio books in it on topics from "How to Listen and Understand Great Music" to "The New Testament" to "The Great Ideas in Philosophy" to "An Introduction to Astronomy". The reason I mention it is that whether or not you like audio books, this catalog may be a good starting point for building a foundation of topics in our quest to be Renaissance people.www.teach12.com
or free catalog at 1-800-646-3128PAM
RE: on being a renaissance person
A couple of years ago I ordered some of the audio tapes from The Teaching Company, one set on Shakespeare and the other the one PAM mentions on Great Music. I listened to part of the Shakespeare set and then totally forgot about them. The tapes were very interesting and well done. The Teaching Company also has videos, if I remember correctly. PAM, thanks for the reminder. How I could have forgotten them I don't know, except that I just didn't have time to listen to them then and they are not stored in plain sight. Since I get books on tape from the library to listen to while working around the house and yard, I will just switch back to those and learn something while I work.
RE: on being a renaissance person
The term Renaissance means re-birth of the Classical Greek interests in the arts and sciences which began in the first half of the 15th. Cent. before the fall of Constantinople to the Ottoman Empire 1453, and continued for the next 50 to 75 years. Refugees fled to the west carrying books, manuscripts, and skills. My understanding has always been that a Renaissance man has good basic understanding of the arts and sciences, the way the current political and economic system works, plus specialized skills in two or more of these spheres. People are posting very specialized knowledge in many areas. I am listing names below, of people I believe qualify. But, some of them may have had two left feet and a tin ear.
Sir Walter Raleigh, 15??-1608/10? posted earlier.
Johanne Goethe 1749-1832. Lawyer, public
administrator. His poetry, prose and plays
revolutionized European literature. Made
significant contributions to study of minerology.
comparative anatomy, plant morphology and optics.
I studied Design at Ontario College of Art, and
Goethe's laws on colour are still taught.
Sir Richard Burton 1820? Someone suggested him
earlier. Explorer [discovered source of the Nile]
soldier, secret agent,in India,Afghanistan,
Arabia etc. Adventurer,writer, translated 1001
Nights.Thomas Huxley [Darwin's Bulldog] Poor
family, graduated at 20, chemistry, mining
technology etc. brilliant debator, formulated
and wrote original concept. of agnosticism.
Jonathan Miller,U.K. M.D. writer, actor comedian
[Beyond the Fringe] theatrical director,
modern works, Shakespeare, etc. Opera.
Wagner.Charles Pellegrino. U.S. Spaceprobe [Challenger]
and deep sea vessel designer. One of the tech
staff who warned White House of ice danger prior to
disaster. This lead to work with Ballard on deep
sea technology and involvement with Ballard on
Titanic, [ice connection] He became an 'accidental
archaeologist'. writer:Her Name Titanic, Ghosts of
the Titanic, Unearthing Atlantis.[Volcanology,
history, archaeology, geology,tectonic plates].
Return to Sodom and Gomorrah,
see 'Atlantis'. Sci-Fi, + writes on damage to
environment. He's 40 something, and was
diagnosed as 'intellectually challenged' when a
child.
Friends, there are only so many hours in a day. Renaissance Man doesn't have to be a genius, but is curious to learn more about his, and other peoples' worlds.
RE: on being a renaissance person
And Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Leondardo Da Vinci.